THERE IS NO WHY With Ashlee And Michael Cramer

Howard Brown: 00:00:05

Hello. It's Howard Brown. This is the Shining

Howard Brown: 00:00:07

Brightly show. Oh my god. I'm not sure I can get through the

Howard Brown: 00:00:10

show. I have the most amazing mom and son, Ashlee and Michael

Howard Brown: 00:00:19

Cramer. And this is bringing back so many memories for me.

Howard Brown: 00:00:24

Because Michael has cancer at a young onset age, and so did I.

Howard Brown: 00:00:33

And I want you to hear this story. This story needs to be

Howard Brown: 00:00:39

heard, because it's a one of pain and hope. And I want this

Howard Brown: 00:00:46

young man to go up and take the world and set it on fire and

Howard Brown: 00:00:50

bring his mom along for the ride two. Guys, Michael and Ashlee,

Howard Brown: 00:00:56

welcome. How are you today?

Ashlee Cramer: 00:00:59

Thank you so much. You're already making me

Ashlee Cramer: 00:01:00

cry.

Howard Brown: 00:01:01

That's okay. Crying out loud crying so loud.

Michael Cramer: 00:01:04

introduction. Thank you so amazing.

Howard Brown: 00:01:09

I want you guys to do something for me because I

Howard Brown: 00:01:11

have your bio. But this is more important to me because the

Howard Brown: 00:01:16

caregiver patient, the mom and son relationship. It's

Howard Brown: 00:01:20

unbreakable. And I have this with my mom and dad as well.

Howard Brown: 00:01:25

Because at age 23, I ran home to mom and dad and they cared for

Howard Brown: 00:01:29

me. And when you're immunosuppressed like a boy in

Howard Brown: 00:01:32

the bubble, you got to be careful. So I think we're going

Howard Brown: 00:01:36

to do is we're going to do mom and son he said she said I would

Howard Brown: 00:01:41

like you Michael to start and please give me your mom's bio.

Howard Brown: 00:01:45

And tell me about Ashlee.

Michael Cramer: 00:01:48

Ashlee Cramer is one of the strongest, smartest

Michael Cramer: 00:01:52

and most kind people on this earth. And she's not just an

Michael Cramer: 00:01:58

amazing caregiver speaker podcaster YouTuber everything

Michael Cramer: 00:02:03

she does, she's just an amazing person and everyone that she

Michael Cramer: 00:02:06

comes in contact with. It's just falls in love with her. You

Michael Cramer: 00:02:10

know, she leads a caregiver support group and everyone raves

Michael Cramer: 00:02:13

about it. She's just the best mother I could ever ask for. And

Michael Cramer: 00:02:19

there's too much to be said about Ashlee Cramer because her

Michael Cramer: 00:02:22

heart is just so big.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:02:24

And now I am going to cry. But first, first,

Ashlee Cramer: 00:02:29

I might cry too. But first let me introduce you to Michael Reed

Ashlee Cramer: 00:02:34

Cramer. He's my middle kid. He is now 22 years old. This kid

Ashlee Cramer: 00:02:40

was a surfer. He will tell you this a sailor. He was on the

Ashlee Cramer: 00:02:46

Olympic development team for windsurfing, athletic, amazing,

Ashlee Cramer: 00:02:52

you know, kid did beautifully in school. But when he was in

Ashlee Cramer: 00:02:56

college, in his first year of college, I'm not gonna go into

Ashlee Cramer: 00:02:58

his story. He was diagnosed with cancer. And out of that.I don't

Ashlee Cramer: 00:03:04

know, he was always a great kid. But he became this inspiration.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:03:10

And I am so blessed to be his mom. Plus the fact that as a 19

Ashlee Cramer: 00:03:15

year old, he was diagnosed at 19. He's been willing to hang

Ashlee Cramer: 00:03:20

out with his mom. He's a really good rapper. He can play the

Ashlee Cramer: 00:03:23

guitar. He likes Legos. And he is a beautiful Speaker himself.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:03:31

And he has a heart that is huge. And he also leads the cancer

Ashlee Cramer: 00:03:34

support group for survivors. People going through cancer and

Ashlee Cramer: 00:03:38

I am just the proudest moment ever.

Howard Brown: 00:03:43

Well, you've been through a lot, and it's bonded

Howard Brown: 00:03:46

you and I'm sure you need your alone time to as a 19 year old

Howard Brown: 00:03:51

would want some of that, of course. But thank you for such a

Howard Brown: 00:03:54

beautiful introduction of each other. It's it's really amazing,

Howard Brown: 00:04:01

becauselarge B cell lymphoma entered your life first. And I

Howard Brown: 00:04:05

want you Ashlee now, because you're also a widow and you lost

Howard Brown: 00:04:09

your husband. Will you take us through that first start because

Howard Brown: 00:04:13

it leads into your resilience story. And but you lost your

Howard Brown: 00:04:18

husband. Can you start there, please?

Ashlee Cramer: 00:04:20

Yeah, I did. So in 2014, December to actually my

Ashlee Cramer: 00:04:26

husband was just having back pain. And we literally thought

Ashlee Cramer: 00:04:30

like he went to do an MRI. We didn't think anything of it. And

Ashlee Cramer: 00:04:35

he was diagnosed with large B cell lymphoma, which is one of

Ashlee Cramer: 00:04:39

the more treatable cancers. I really believed when he was

Ashlee Cramer: 00:04:43

diagnosed with all my heart I believed that maybe it was just

Ashlee Cramer: 00:04:48

like something from God or the universe, whatever, like making

Ashlee Cramer: 00:04:52

us appreciate life more giving us more perspective. And I

Ashlee Cramer: 00:04:55

really thought he's going to come through this and he's going

Ashlee Cramer: 00:04:58

to be better than that. Ever. And instead, 17 months after

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:03

diagnosis, he passed away. He was in hospice and he was at

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:08

home and like, the beautiful thing was the three children.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:12

and myself were actually with him. Like the moment he took his

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:15

last breath. We were all hugging him, which is a blessing. And we

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:20

were literally saying, you know, I love you when he took his last

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:23

breath. But yeah, it was, it was a challenge. My kids at the time

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:28

were, my daughter was 12. Michael was 14, my other son was

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:32

16. And there I was, I really at that time, what I when he was

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:41

going through chemo and everything, I felt like my

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:43

biggest thing was, let me take care of the kids. And I worked

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:46

as much as I could take care of the kids. So Patrice could focus

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:49

on healing. My husband's name was Patrice. And with Michael

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:54

was a different story. It was more I was with him 24/7 with my

Ashlee Cramer: 00:05:57

husband, sometimes I felt like I was trying to take all the

Ashlee Cramer: 00:06:00

burden the adult burdens off of him. But I was a widow at a

Ashlee Cramer: 00:06:05

young at a young age. And it did teach us a lot. It brought us

Ashlee Cramer: 00:06:09

very close together. I feel like my kids didn't really go through

Ashlee Cramer: 00:06:13

the bad teenage years, because we were so close. Not that

Ashlee Cramer: 00:06:17

they're perfect. But yeah,

Howard Brown: 00:06:20

thank you for sharing that. And Michael, you

Howard Brown: 00:06:22

lost your dad. And what were you were, how are you, your

Howard Brown: 00:06:26

siblings? How did you get through.

Michael Cramer: 00:06:30

So I was 14, when he passed away, about to

Michael Cramer: 00:06:33

turn 15. And I turned 15, a week after he passed away, actually.

Michael Cramer: 00:06:37

So I was very, very young. But it was really shocking, because

Michael Cramer: 00:06:41

cancer was one of those things that when I was 14, you just

Michael Cramer: 00:06:46

like, started to understand what it was, like when you were a

Michael Cramer: 00:06:49

kid, maybe you understood what cancer was. But then when you're

Michael Cramer: 00:06:52

14, and you see your father get cancer, and you see him go bald,

Michael Cramer: 00:06:56

and you see him go get sick, and it's just like, really scary.

Michael Cramer: 00:07:00

And when he passed away, it was really devastating. Because ever

Michael Cramer: 00:07:06

since I was a young kid, my dad was this big, strong guy, you

Michael Cramer: 00:07:09

kind of could do anything, you know, he was like, he was my

Michael Cramer: 00:07:13

father, you know, and he was the guy that would be kind of tough

Michael Cramer: 00:07:17

in the family and say the things to us that was like, Oh, he's so

Michael Cramer: 00:07:21

strong, and he was big, and he was built and he was buff, and

Michael Cramer: 00:07:24

he was just a cool guy and and then to see him get so weak

Michael Cramer: 00:07:27

physically and turn to this really skinny cancer patient and

Michael Cramer: 00:07:32

and watch him pass away was just so devastating. And it really

Michael Cramer: 00:07:35

just brought us this light on how fragile life is and seeing

Michael Cramer: 00:07:41

someone pass away at a young age. Not a lot of people see

Michael Cramer: 00:07:43

that. So really, I was torn. We really had an appreciation for

Michael Cramer: 00:07:48

like my mom and everything she did, and for our family members.

Michael Cramer: 00:07:51

And we're given this different perspective at a young age, so

Michael Cramer: 00:07:54

we wouldn't have got otherwise which, of course, I wish we

Michael Cramer: 00:07:57

didn't have to get that perspective. But it was a

Michael Cramer: 00:08:00

blessing in disguise, like you say sometimes because it really

Michael Cramer: 00:08:04

made us closer and my mom and I became like best friends after

Michael Cramer: 00:08:07

that happened. And again, it kind of set like the tone for a

Michael Cramer: 00:08:12

while when I got cancer that we were going to stick together no

Michael Cramer: 00:08:14

matter what

Ashlee Cramer: 00:08:15

I just wanted wanted to add was, was a that

Ashlee Cramer: 00:08:18

was a thing for me. When he came home like I truly did not think

Ashlee Cramer: 00:08:23

he was going to die. And when they told everyone to hospice, I

Ashlee Cramer: 00:08:26

was shocked. And my mom who's a beautiful human was like, I

Ashlee Cramer: 00:08:31

don't think you should have him in hospice at home, maybe in

Ashlee Cramer: 00:08:34

hospice centre, because I can Are you okay to have the kids

Ashlee Cramer: 00:08:37

watch him. And he wanted to be at home. And so how could you

Ashlee Cramer: 00:08:42

know, of course, but I was really grateful he was at home

Ashlee Cramer: 00:08:46

because as hard as it was to be with him in his last moments. It

Ashlee Cramer: 00:08:52

was it was beautiful and peaceful. And even though they

Ashlee Cramer: 00:08:57

were young, I think it was really important that they saw

Ashlee Cramer: 00:09:00

their father through till the end of his physical life, even

Ashlee Cramer: 00:09:04

though we still feel like he's with us. I'm telling you,

Howard Brown: 00:09:07

I'm telling you, he is with you. In the cancer

Howard Brown: 00:09:11

world, unfortunately, in the stage for specific later stages,

Howard Brown: 00:09:15

we live with death, people, the cancer burden becomes too great.

Howard Brown: 00:09:18

It's not that they didn't want to keep living, and they're

Howard Brown: 00:09:21

called to heaven. In the Jewish religion, I want to take a

Howard Brown: 00:09:24

second I just want to honour him. So in this world, you leave

Howard Brown: 00:09:29

with nothing. Okay? But you leave with your name and your

Howard Brown: 00:09:32

memory. So there's a Jewish blessing that I'm going to just

Howard Brown: 00:09:36

quickly recite right now in honouring him and honouring his

Howard Brown: 00:09:39

memory. So we say, May Patrice's purchase his name and memory be

Howard Brown: 00:09:44

only for a blessing for all of those who knew and loved him.

Howard Brown: 00:09:48

And I just he heard that we're talking to you now Patrice,

Howard Brown: 00:09:52

because you'll never be forgotten and that's, that's the

Howard Brown: 00:09:56

only thing your job is to just take Him into your heart and

Howard Brown: 00:09:59

meant remember him and say his name. Those are the only two

Howard Brown: 00:10:02

things you leave with. You don't even get 144 characters on your

Howard Brown: 00:10:05

tombstone, you get loving dad and husband. So I wanted to

Howard Brown: 00:10:08

honour him for that. For that now, now things you're trying to

Howard Brown: 00:10:14

repair from not you know growing up without your dad and your

Howard Brown: 00:10:18

surfen you're doing well you get into school. And now let's

Howard Brown: 00:10:22

transition. Michael, I'm not sure Ashlee who wants to start

Howard Brown: 00:10:25

but transition into your story now of how you got diagnosed.

Michael Cramer: 00:10:30

Yeah. So like you said, went through high

Michael Cramer: 00:10:33

school. And then I started college and we're home from

Michael Cramer: 00:10:36

COVID COVID hit Miami hit Florida. And we were I was home.

Michael Cramer: 00:10:41

I remember I started to feel pretty tired. It was like March

Michael Cramer: 00:10:43

of 2020. And that's when it was really big. The pandemic there

Michael Cramer: 00:10:47

was just like, boom, everything was shut down. And I was just

Michael Cramer: 00:10:50

tired, like I said, and for a few months that exhaustion and

Michael Cramer: 00:10:54

tiredness dragged on. But of course, we were so locked down,

Michael Cramer: 00:10:57

wasn't in school wasn't in the gym wasn't surfing beaches were

Michael Cramer: 00:11:00

closed. And again, I blamed it on that. I thought, whatever.

Michael Cramer: 00:11:04

Maybe I'm a little depressed. It's been kind of tough. We're

Michael Cramer: 00:11:06

home, not doing much. And then all of a sudden, I start to get

Michael Cramer: 00:11:10

these night sweats. And I thought, Okay, well, it's almost

Michael Cramer: 00:11:15

summer. It's pretty hot. It makes sense. And then it kept

Michael Cramer: 00:11:19

going on and on and on. And eventually, one of the beaches

Michael Cramer: 00:11:22

in North Florida opened up so my friends and I went and we went

Michael Cramer: 00:11:25

surfing in the beach called New Smyrna Beach, I came back home,

Michael Cramer: 00:11:28

I felt really good because like, oh, I went surfing, I feel so

Michael Cramer: 00:11:30

good. And then a week later, I started to get fevers. And

Michael Cramer: 00:11:35

that's when we knew something was wrong. So my mom and I

Michael Cramer: 00:11:38

started to call my family a paediatrician with this lady.

Michael Cramer: 00:11:41

We've been seeing, like my whole life when I was 19. She saw her

Michael Cramer: 00:11:44

21

Ashlee Cramer: 00:11:45

She's our family doctor, she still calls me. Yes,

Ashlee Cramer: 00:11:48

yeah, of course.

Michael Cramer: 00:11:49

I saw her over telehealth zoom at first. And

Michael Cramer: 00:11:54

she's like, Oh, you You seem fine. But if you want, you can

Michael Cramer: 00:11:57

come in for some blood work. So I came in for some blood work,

Michael Cramer: 00:12:00

and went back home that day. And a few days later, she called my

Michael Cramer: 00:12:04

mom. And my mom called me and my mom was like, we have to go to

Michael Cramer: 00:12:08

see a blood specialist and Nicholas Children's Hospital.

Michael Cramer: 00:12:12

And I wasn't thinking anything at this point. We thought I was

Michael Cramer: 00:12:15

anaemic. You know,

Ashlee Cramer: 00:12:17

definitely. I'm a vegan. I was like, Maybe I not

Ashlee Cramer: 00:12:21

giving him enough red meat. And also, you know, when she said to

Ashlee Cramer: 00:12:28

me, I want you to see, I want you to see this friend of mine.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:12:31

He's a blood specialist. And she's like, he's a good friend

Ashlee Cramer: 00:12:33

of mine. So the fact that she said that Nicholas Children's

Ashlee Cramer: 00:12:35

Hospital, I didn't think oh, it's serious. We're going to the

Ashlee Cramer: 00:12:38

hospital. She's like, he's a good friend of mine. I think you

Ashlee Cramer: 00:12:41

should go see him. He's a great guy. Great doctor. So I was

Ashlee Cramer: 00:12:44

like, okay, so I call Michael up. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, they

Ashlee Cramer: 00:12:47

got us an appointment today, the same day, she gets the bloodwork

Ashlee Cramer: 00:12:50

back, and we can go see him. Great. We're gonna find out

Ashlee Cramer: 00:12:54

what's wrong with you....cancer. I don't know what we neither one

Ashlee Cramer: 00:12:58

of us that didn't enter our mind.

Howard Brown: 00:13:00

So I just to give you some relatable here is that

Howard Brown: 00:13:04

I'm now 23 and a half years old. I'm driving out to Dayton, Ohio

Howard Brown: 00:13:07

for a big promotion as a national director of NCR

Howard Brown: 00:13:10

Corporation. And I have a little red bump on my cheek. And I get

Howard Brown: 00:13:13

out and Michael, you might not have ever used a payphone. But I

Howard Brown: 00:13:17

got out and use the payphone to call my mom and say, you know

Howard Brown: 00:13:21

that there's something there and I'm looking in the rearview

Howard Brown: 00:13:24

mirror and I keep seeing it. And it got bigger than she came out

Howard Brown: 00:13:27

to sit up my apartment. I flew back to Boston, this is this is

Howard Brown: 00:13:31

1989 We had no cell phones, no computer, there was no

Howard Brown: 00:13:34

telemedicine, you know, the analogue days, you know,

Howard Brown: 00:13:37

computer uses just starting and eventually grow. So I actually

Howard Brown: 00:13:42

had a symbol there, if that didn't come out, I would have

Howard Brown: 00:13:45

died. It came out. And I knew there was something wrong, but I

Howard Brown: 00:13:49

thought it was a cyst. And it took them many weeks to figure

Howard Brown: 00:13:53

out what I had. And until I actually got the word that I was

Howard Brown: 00:13:56

going to Dana Farber Cancer Institute. I didn't even think

Howard Brown: 00:13:59

about cancer at all. And my dad had to get a book on cancer,

Howard Brown: 00:14:03

because we didn't have any experience. I didn't know

Howard Brown: 00:14:06

anything. So deer in the headlights just just stops you

Howard Brown: 00:14:10

in the tracks. And that's what I wanted to say as a point of

Howard Brown: 00:14:12

emphasis is that you had no idea what you were walking into. It

Howard Brown: 00:14:16

just bank smacks you and it stops everything right then in

Howard Brown: 00:14:20

there. So I continue. Let's go get blood and now we're figuring

Howard Brown: 00:14:24

this thing out now.

Michael Cramer: 00:14:25

Yeah, so I went to the doctor, once the doctor's

Michael Cramer: 00:14:28

office just wasn't thinking anything. I remember sitting

Michael Cramer: 00:14:32

there looking around, not noticing anyone that had like, I

Michael Cramer: 00:14:37

don't know how I didn't notice I was in an oncology office. I

Michael Cramer: 00:14:39

mean, it's haematology oncology, but when thinking haematology, I

Michael Cramer: 00:14:43

don't know. That wasn't the GI anything and we were basically

Michael Cramer: 00:14:45

in the cancer office. And to get the bloodwork done. The doctor

Michael Cramer: 00:14:50

is super really he's just really a nice guy. So he's so nice. And

Michael Cramer: 00:14:53

he tells me Do you want to spend the night in the hospital and do

Michael Cramer: 00:14:57

a bone marrow biopsy tomorrow morning and I was like you're

Michael Cramer: 00:14:59

crazy. I'm not saying And then hospital, spent the night in the

Michael Cramer: 00:15:01

hospital. And so we come back the next day and do the biopsy.

Michael Cramer: 00:15:06

And I remember I was just nervous to go under anaesthesia

Michael Cramer: 00:15:09

because they did under anaesthesia at the total

Michael Cramer: 00:15:11

hospital. Yeah, we're waking up from the anaesthesia and the

Michael Cramer: 00:15:15

doctor walked in. The first thing is a doctor walks in and

Michael Cramer: 00:15:17

of course he looks at the biopsy and tells me how leukaemia Slash

Michael Cramer: 00:15:20

Lymphoma. And from there, it's just like a blur. I'm just

Michael Cramer: 00:15:24

getting taken to the sixth floor of the hospital, out of poor

Michael Cramer: 00:15:27

place in the next day, and this is going to start chemotherapy

Michael Cramer: 00:15:30

right away. But instead, my mom and I, we spent a week in the

Michael Cramer: 00:15:33

hospital together because they couldn't figure out my official

Michael Cramer: 00:15:36

diagnosis to so rare that thought, initially I just had,

Michael Cramer: 00:15:40

oh, it's blood cancer, so it's either going to be leukaemia or

Michael Cramer: 00:15:42

lymphoma, it will be diagnosed within 24 hours.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:15:45

They were really they were like maybe it's AML.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:15:47

Maybe it's L depending on those two, we'll see what your chemo

Ashlee Cramer: 00:15:51

protocol will be. And we talked

Howard Brown: 00:15:53

Hold on Ashlee, for those listening, a bone

Howard Brown: 00:15:56

marrow aspirate, and I've had a number of those too. I didn't

Howard Brown: 00:16:00

have them with any anaesthesia, except for numbing the skin.

Howard Brown: 00:16:03

really frickin painful. That's a needle into the bone. And then

Howard Brown: 00:16:08

it's a needle, expunging the actual bone marrow out of the

Howard Brown: 00:16:11

bone. Both of those hurt like a mother. They really hurt. So I'm

Howard Brown: 00:16:16

glad they did it under anaesthesia for you for you. The

Howard Brown: 00:16:19

second thing is that ALL MLL their forms of leukaemia, okay

Howard Brown: 00:16:24

and they're just have different names. So my non Hodgkins

Howard Brown: 00:16:26

lymphoma, that's blood cancer of the lymphatic system. But yours

Howard Brown: 00:16:30

I have to tell you until I met you never heard of it.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:16:33

Because there's less than 200 documented cases.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:16:37

And there's only a handful of survivors. The only there is no

Ashlee Cramer: 00:16:43

protocol. You know how every cancer has a protocol there is

Ashlee Cramer: 00:16:46

there is no key like the few survivors that we have come in

Ashlee Cramer: 00:16:50

contact with. There's there's two others that I've been in

Ashlee Cramer: 00:16:53

touch with had different chemos than Michael. But the two that

Ashlee Cramer: 00:16:58

we know, both went through bone marrow transplants and are still

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:02

alive today. At one of them is three years out. One of them is

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:07

I think five years out. So you know, it's if they asked us when

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:13

they talked when they finally figured it took through. It's

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:15

very you know, I'm gonna tell you really quickly the

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:17

pathologist at Nicklaus Children's Hospital actually saw

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:21

there was a woman she we found out this after she diagnosed him

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:25

with with howto splenic T cell lymphoma right away within like

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:28

four hours. But she said to the oncologist, please get second,

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:33

third fourth opinions, because I've never actually seen it.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:36

I've only seen it in the textbooks. And I don't want to

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:38

be wrong. So I noticed but then said, to get other pathologists

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:43

to agree with me because I I've never seen this before. How is

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:47

it possible that this knife has it? So they really it took them

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:51

three weeks because they ended up getting five other opinions

Ashlee Cramer: 00:17:54

from 500 hospitals around the country. And they all agreed. So

Ashlee Cramer: 00:18:00

those three weeks though were a little bit of torture, because

Ashlee Cramer: 00:18:03

he you know, he told us within 24 to 48 hours, we'll have your

Ashlee Cramer: 00:18:06

diagnosis and start chemo and it was 24 hours. He's like, we'll

Ashlee Cramer: 00:18:10

figure it out soon. 48 hours. And then finally after a week,

Ashlee Cramer: 00:18:13

he did start Michael on a steroid called dexamethasone,

Ashlee Cramer: 00:18:17

because he said all blood cancers usually end up this is

Ashlee Cramer: 00:18:21

somewhere in the protocol. And he's like, maybe this will at

Ashlee Cramer: 00:18:24

least stop it from getting worse. I swear he saved

Ashlee Cramer: 00:18:27

Michael's life by starting him on dexamethasone. Because the

Ashlee Cramer: 00:18:31

majority of people that are diagnosed with this cancer end

Ashlee Cramer: 00:18:34

up passing away before they get diagnosed. Right, of course. So

Ashlee Cramer: 00:18:39

I paint that agony of not knowing my parents lost a tonne

Ashlee Cramer: 00:18:44

of weight.

Howard Brown: 00:18:45

Again, this is no cell phones, this is busy

Howard Brown: 00:18:47

signals. And I was off doing my thing because I felt good except

Howard Brown: 00:18:50

for this big red bump that was getting to be purple as a golf

Howard Brown: 00:18:53

ball. I wanted to ask you something, Michael. And again,

Howard Brown: 00:18:59

this is something that I got very lucky on. I was coming in

Howard Brown: 00:19:02

to do chemotherapy in October of 1989. My first one scared, just

Howard Brown: 00:19:10

didn't sleep at all. And I tested my blood tests and they

Howard Brown: 00:19:13

came back and said My basically my liver function was too high.

Howard Brown: 00:19:18

Well, my liver function was too high. They're not doing chemo

Howard Brown: 00:19:21

today. And I was like, What are we going to do? You just told me

Howard Brown: 00:19:24

I you know, six months to live or less three to six months. And

Howard Brown: 00:19:28

my doctor Eric Rubin said, We're going on a field trip today.

Howard Brown: 00:19:32

We're going to the cryogenic centre. And I was like cryo,

Howard Brown: 00:19:34

what is that? He goes into the sperm bank. And I want to tell

Howard Brown: 00:19:39

you that that the fact that he did that then in 1989 was quite

Howard Brown: 00:19:44

rare. Although they're doing it and it's still sometimes they

Howard Brown: 00:19:47

don't talk about it now. Did they talk to you about fertility

Howard Brown: 00:19:51

and preservation? Because that was very rare thing. And the

Howard Brown: 00:19:54

bonus is miracle two, you know, Miracle one, my twin sister

Howard Brown: 00:19:57

saved me from a bone marrow transplant and I showed you guys

Howard Brown: 00:19:59

This is the back of life. Miracle to is that frozen sperm

Howard Brown: 00:20:03

11 years later gave me a beautiful, healthy daughter

Howard Brown: 00:20:06

Emily, who just graduated University of Michigan is a TV

Howard Brown: 00:20:08

reporter in Montana now, so I want to hear a little bit about

Howard Brown: 00:20:12

that story about how they talk to you.

Michael Cramer: 00:20:14

Yeah, I mean, it was just hey, chemo can make you

Michael Cramer: 00:20:17

infertile. So here is a little specimen, whatever you call it,

Michael Cramer: 00:20:23

nut bag, a little specimen bottle, a little, little bottle.

Michael Cramer: 00:20:27

Yeah, yes, you need to ejaculate in it. And yeah, we're going to

Michael Cramer: 00:20:31

send Oh, they asked, they first asked, Would you like to press

Michael Cramer: 00:20:37

the I don't even remember, he doesn't remember? Of course, I

Michael Cramer: 00:20:39

was in so much. I don't remember exactly what happens when we're

Michael Cramer: 00:20:42

getting a little thing here. Ejaculate. And we're gonna

Michael Cramer: 00:20:45

freeze you. Maybe you'll have kids one day. Yeah. But that was

Michael Cramer: 00:20:49

pretty much how it went?

Howard Brown: 00:20:51

Well, first of all, I'm really glad they did.

Howard Brown: 00:20:54

Because now you have a choice. Listen, you could always adopt

Howard Brown: 00:20:57

or actually have surrogacy, but you now we're at the right time,

Howard Brown: 00:21:01

you will have a choice like I did. And I just wish that upon

Howard Brown: 00:21:05

you. Because I thought that was taken away from me, as well. And

Howard Brown: 00:21:10

many cancer patients, young onset cancer patients that is

Howard Brown: 00:21:13

taken away from them, they just go right into treatment, and

Howard Brown: 00:21:16

they can't or if they're too young, you know, below puberty

Howard Brown: 00:21:18

age, they're not worried about that. They want to save your

Howard Brown: 00:21:21

life. And I was not thinking about that either. I basically

Howard Brown: 00:21:24

did it just like you, I don't even remember it. I went there.

Howard Brown: 00:21:27

You know, and I don't even really remember anything else

Howard Brown: 00:21:30

after that. But I then I got it, then we get a bill and I pay for

Howard Brown: 00:21:33

it. But when I'm married, and my wife says, You know what, you

Howard Brown: 00:21:36

know, we want to have a family together. And we're living in

Howard Brown: 00:21:40

Silicon Valley at the time. What a blessing to be able to do

Howard Brown: 00:21:44

that, and have a healthy baby and be able to become a dad. I

Howard Brown: 00:21:49

wish that upon you on the right circumstances, if you can. So

Howard Brown: 00:21:53

thank you for sharing that. And I'm really glad the the blessing

Howard Brown: 00:21:56

and the genius of your doctors and more doctors to actually

Howard Brown: 00:22:00

talk about fertility and all that. So I want to talk a little

Howard Brown: 00:22:03

bit about some symptoms. And then we're going to talk about

Howard Brown: 00:22:06

what you guys are doing currently. But you've had a

Howard Brown: 00:22:08

rough go after transplant. And did you do your own cells? Or

Howard Brown: 00:22:12

did you get a donor?

Michael Cramer: 00:22:14

No, if I had my own cells, I wouldn't have had a

Michael Cramer: 00:22:16

rough go because that would have meant I wouldn't have been able

Michael Cramer: 00:22:18

to get graft versus host disease. So I you also wouldn't

Michael Cramer: 00:22:21

have survived. Yeah, it

Howard Brown: 00:22:22

might not have lived right if you did your own.

Howard Brown: 00:22:24

Right,

Michael Cramer: 00:22:24

definitely.

Howard Brown: 00:22:25

So you have you had a donor match.

Michael Cramer: 00:22:28

Yeah. 100% match from Germany. 10 out of 10 gave

Michael Cramer: 00:22:32

me his cells. And right away. I mean, I got engraftment

Michael Cramer: 00:22:35

syndrome, which was brutal. I mean, that gave me so much

Michael Cramer: 00:22:39

swellings, my heart and lungs. I almost passed away one day and I

Michael Cramer: 00:22:43

had so many hallucinations. It was it was crazy. Just right off

Michael Cramer: 00:22:47

the bat. The stem cell transplant was just like finding

Michael Cramer: 00:22:50

my body. And then a few weeks later, I'd had these identical

Michael Cramer: 00:22:54

rashes on my, my thighs and my arms which were graft versus

Michael Cramer: 00:22:59

host disease of the skin. Which basically meant that it was

Michael Cramer: 00:23:04

rejecting my body was donor stem cells, rejecting my body and

Michael Cramer: 00:23:08

just finding it. And then I develop liver GVHD, gi GVHD. And

Michael Cramer: 00:23:12

now I have chronic GVHD. It's been like this whole thing that

Michael Cramer: 00:23:17

now I live with it. It's like, a set. It's basically like a

Michael Cramer: 00:23:20

second cancer. It's probably it's even, it's even worse than

Michael Cramer: 00:23:24

cancer. Honestly, GVHD setpoints it's really horrible. What I

Michael Cramer: 00:23:29

live with, and I'm still in treatment. I do a treatment

Michael Cramer: 00:23:32

called extra corporal photo for Rhesus, which sounds very

Michael Cramer: 00:23:36

confusing, but what they do is they've access my poor was

Michael Cramer: 00:23:40

double board with two needles and hooked me up to this

Michael Cramer: 00:23:43

machine. And the machine takes out my blood separates the white

Michael Cramer: 00:23:47

blood cells weakens them and returns it to me. I'll do that

Michael Cramer: 00:23:50

twice a week. And the whole idea is to calm down my overactive

Michael Cramer: 00:23:54

immune system, which is what GVHD is, it's kind of like,

Michael Cramer: 00:23:58

insane, like autoimmune disease. Like it just goes crazy and

Michael Cramer: 00:24:03

attacks all part of your all parts of your body.

Howard Brown: 00:24:06

And you're doing that twice a week still.

Michael Cramer: 00:24:09

Yeah. Okay.

Howard Brown: 00:24:10

And for the foreseeable future, we'll do it.

Michael Cramer: 00:24:12

Yeah, I mean, hopefully it'll be reduced and

Michael Cramer: 00:24:15

eventually I can get off of it. But as of now, it's that plus

Michael Cramer: 00:24:19

immunosuppressants. So it's still like, you know, a full

Michael Cramer: 00:24:23

time thing. The whole being in the hospital and what was your

Michael Cramer: 00:24:27

What was your transplant date? October 27 2020.

Howard Brown: 00:24:32

Notice how we remember that mine was May 24

Howard Brown: 00:24:36

1990. I did have some graft versus host disease. My twin

Howard Brown: 00:24:40

sister was a one in 25,000 chance of being a match but I

Howard Brown: 00:24:43

was attend for 10 HLA matches well, and they said because she

Howard Brown: 00:24:47

was woman and we had enough the same, but I still had some, but

Howard Brown: 00:24:52

I only had pink skin. I turned like the Pink Panther for a

Howard Brown: 00:24:56

short time, and I was itchy, but they were monitoring me and And

Howard Brown: 00:25:00

that's not what you've been through, you've been through a

Howard Brown: 00:25:02

lot worse right now, and still kind of chugging along through

Howard Brown: 00:25:06

that. So thank you for sharing that. I mean, graft versus host

Howard Brown: 00:25:10

disease is your friend, but also not your friend when you take

Howard Brown: 00:25:12

someone else's, you know, bone marrow or or even like someone

Howard Brown: 00:25:15

when they actually have a kidney or a heart. I mean, that's not

Howard Brown: 00:25:19

normal. The body wants to fight that. Yeah, they don't want to

Howard Brown: 00:25:22

accept it. So but it's gotten you here, you're still dealing

Howard Brown: 00:25:26

with some of these after effects. But yeah, but man, you

Howard Brown: 00:25:29

look like a great looking surfer. And, you know, wind

Howard Brown: 00:25:31

surfer to me, but this is all good. I want to take the next,

Howard Brown: 00:25:36

you know, five or six minutes of the show here, and be able to

Howard Brown: 00:25:39

talk about what you've learned, talk about what you're doing.

Howard Brown: 00:25:43

And, and then talk about, you know, some of your hopes for the

Howard Brown: 00:25:49

for the future. I, you know, getting cancer for the second

Howard Brown: 00:25:52

time for me, I put things in a lot shorter time cycle, I wasn't

Howard Brown: 00:25:56

thinking I was getting for long term, I was thinking about

Howard Brown: 00:26:00

couple years seeing my daughter graduated high school, a couple

Howard Brown: 00:26:04

more years seeing her graduate college. And now that I'm going

Howard Brown: 00:26:08

to be four years net, no evidence of disease in September

Howard Brown: 00:26:11

20. You know, what, I'm putting it out there that I'm, I'm gonna

Howard Brown: 00:26:15

walk her down the aisle at the right time. And so, I know we

Howard Brown: 00:26:18

live in short cycles, okay, because we don't take anything

Howard Brown: 00:26:22

for granted. So I want both of you to tell me, bring me up,

Howard Brown: 00:26:27

bring bring our audience up to speed as to what you're doing,

Howard Brown: 00:26:31

how you feel, anything you want, and, and some of the things that

Howard Brown: 00:26:35

some of your hopes.

Michael Cramer: 00:26:38

So what we're doing is, we are Michael Mom

Michael Cramer: 00:26:42

taught cancer, and, as you guys have heard, and as you know, are

Michael Cramer: 00:26:45

still in the hospital a little bit. But I think that we just

Michael Cramer: 00:26:49

want to spread our message of love, and hope around the world

Michael Cramer: 00:26:55

and help as many people as, as we can. You know, it's been one

Michael Cramer: 00:27:00

crazy journey. And there's been a lot that we have gone through

Michael Cramer: 00:27:04

together. And if there's one thing that we've learned, it's

Michael Cramer: 00:27:07

just to love and appreciate life. And that life can be taken

Michael Cramer: 00:27:12

away from you at any moment, you know, and so can someone you

Michael Cramer: 00:27:15

love. So it's just about really loving the people around you

Michael Cramer: 00:27:19

being grateful for what you have and living to the fullest.

Michael Cramer: 00:27:22

Because I could go back, you know, when I was healthy, and

Michael Cramer: 00:27:28

have the perspective that I had now, I mean, the things I would

Michael Cramer: 00:27:31

do, I would be so much more grateful for them and so much

Michael Cramer: 00:27:34

more appreciative. And that's really everything is just

Michael Cramer: 00:27:37

perspective. And that's all, all we're about here is perspective.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:27:41

What happened was in 2021, so Michael had his stem

Ashlee Cramer: 00:27:46

cell transplant October 27, of 2020, when he started getting

Ashlee Cramer: 00:27:51

the chronic graft versus host disease, we were like, you know

Ashlee Cramer: 00:27:55

why this gives us a lot of purpose. This gives us more time

Ashlee Cramer: 00:27:58

though in the hospital, we were in the hospital a lot at that

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:01

time. He was in and out like admitted that not even just for

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:04

the day, they could be admitted for weeks at a time. And we said

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:08

you know what, let's, we have to do something with this time

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:11

that's productive and valuable. So we started the podcast. And

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:15

when we started, we were we had such I mean, we were together

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:18

anyway, all the time. But we have such a great connection.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:22

And then we started doing like rap videos together. And we just

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:29

we just realised that the more because we have felt so much

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:33

support at the very beginning of this journey. One of the first

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:38

Instagram posts I did was I remember saying, Wow, I'm an OB,

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:43

I am an optimist. And I always thought people are so good. But

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:47

when this happened to Michael, the outpouring of love, was it

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:52

even me this optimism blew my mind about how people were so

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:56

good, and gave us so much love and support. And the people at

Ashlee Cramer: 00:28:59

the hospital and the nurses and the doctors and the people that

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:03

clean the room. And the godly, we have felt so much love. And

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:08

it's been so reciprocal. And I think it's been a great lesson

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:11

on connection. And how important connection is I don't know if

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:15

you know about that Harvard study that came out recently

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:17

talking about connection. That's like one of the like, the most

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:20

important things with longevity and health. And happiness is

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:24

connection. I think that has been huge for us. We've had a

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:27

connection together plus with other people. And it is true

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:31

what Michael said, like perspective is so big. It just

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:35

gives you so much more perspective on life. And such a

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:38

purpose. I feel like we've had such a purpose. I'm so grateful

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:41

that as a 19 year old now he's 22 But he is I don't want to say

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:46

yes, he's embraced this journey. Because it's a hard age to to

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:50

share your vulnerability so much. You know, and I think we

Ashlee Cramer: 00:29:56

just feel like if we're going through this we Wanna make it

Ashlee Cramer: 00:30:00

matter, and it's given us an EN, we are still in the hospital, I

Ashlee Cramer: 00:30:04

can't go back to my full time job. And so we're like, Well,

Ashlee Cramer: 00:30:07

let's take something and make something out of this. And it's,

Ashlee Cramer: 00:30:10

we've touched like so many people touch us, and we just

Ashlee Cramer: 00:30:13

want to give it back to, it's given a great purpose for us.

Howard Brown: 00:30:17

I know what those days in and out of the hospital

Howard Brown: 00:30:20

I had 120 blood transfusions and platelets and thinking back now

Howard Brown: 00:30:23

33 years, and then having it lightning strike again with

Howard Brown: 00:30:26

stage four cancer at age 50. And now getting through it, even I

Howard Brown: 00:30:31

hear you and I feel it much. And you know, we have a mantra in

Howard Brown: 00:30:36

the cancer world, at least in the men's group that I'm in

Howard Brown: 00:30:39

called k, f, g, and KF G stands for keep effing going. Because

Howard Brown: 00:30:44

you don't have any other choice. You don't have any other choice.

Howard Brown: 00:30:47

And so we say that mantra, we don't take it for for granted.

Howard Brown: 00:30:51

There are bad days, and then you have your good days and you

Howard Brown: 00:30:53

maximise your, your good days. But Michael, I think it's so

Howard Brown: 00:30:56

important. Okay, I mentor to a young man named Christian who

Howard Brown: 00:31:00

had leukaemia when I was, you know, in the hospital age 23. He

Howard Brown: 00:31:04

did not make it, but I knew him for a year, but we were always

Howard Brown: 00:31:08

in the hospital or, you know, both moms who go out for a

Howard Brown: 00:31:11

cigarette, you know, you know, because they so much stress

Howard Brown: 00:31:14

being a caregiver. But I think your message to and the support

Howard Brown: 00:31:17

group that you lead for young onset is so important. Because

Howard Brown: 00:31:21

your teenage years, just got cut short, a little bit, and now

Howard Brown: 00:31:25

you're getting some of it back. And so it's so, so important.

Howard Brown: 00:31:29

And then also for you actually, being a mom being a caregiver,

Howard Brown: 00:31:33

you have two other children here that are helping and supporting

Howard Brown: 00:31:36

you, as well. And you have to see how they're doing. Yeah,

Howard Brown: 00:31:40

because that's the thing and cancer too, for me is that we no

Howard Brown: 00:31:42

one was asking my daughter, how she was doing. How's your dad,

Howard Brown: 00:31:45

How's your dad, How's your dad, How's your dad, your dad's gonna

Howard Brown: 00:31:47

die. And we forgot about her a little bit not we didn't forget

Howard Brown: 00:31:51

about it. But she she was dealing with such an intensity,

Howard Brown: 00:31:54

she actually is taking her now to kind of deal with it, and get

Howard Brown: 00:31:58

some support for that and, and help and all that. And here's my

Howard Brown: 00:32:01

three things. One, you have to be selfish in your time of need

Howard Brown: 00:32:05

accept help, too. If you can't find help, help can be provided

Howard Brown: 00:32:09

for you. All right, and you need to be able to do that. And so I

Howard Brown: 00:32:14

mentor over the Imerman Angels, mostly men, but I've had some

Howard Brown: 00:32:18

women that have stage four colon cancer, because I'm five steps

Howard Brown: 00:32:20

ahead. And so Michael, I look at you as like a little brother,

Howard Brown: 00:32:24

okay. And we're bonded now for life because of your experience

Howard Brown: 00:32:30

and and now our friendship and I just want to tell you that you

Howard Brown: 00:32:34

touch me, because I don't want anyone to walk in the steps that

Howard Brown: 00:32:38

we've had to do. It's just horrible. And for you, Ashlee

Howard Brown: 00:32:41

you're an angel on this earth, just like my wife, Lisa, just

Howard Brown: 00:32:44

like my parents, you are an angel, because of your

Howard Brown: 00:32:46

dedication and your ability to do this and now using your voice

Howard Brown: 00:32:50

to share with others. So I want to we're gonna put on my

Howard Brown: 00:32:53

sunglasses. Now for those that are just listening. We are in

Howard Brown: 00:32:56

the shining brightly spotlight. And I would like you both to one

Howard Brown: 00:33:01

tell how people can get in touch with you, you know, your

Howard Brown: 00:33:03

website, your social channels, and then I'd like each to give a

Howard Brown: 00:33:06

final comment and then throw the show back to me.

Michael Cramer: 00:33:10

But for my son, yeah. All right.

Howard Brown: 00:33:14

You gotta be you gotta wear shades. So shining so

Howard Brown: 00:33:18

it's shining brightly with love. So we got his wear shaved. So go

Howard Brown: 00:33:21

ahead, tell us how they get in touch with you.

Michael Cramer: 00:33:24

You can go to WWE dot Michael and Mom taught

Michael Cramer: 00:33:27

cancer.com Or go to our Instagram at Michael Reid Cramer

Michael Cramer: 00:33:32

mi ch il or ei D CRAMER or Ashlee Cramer.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:33:38

S H L E. C r a n er? Yes. Or you can email us

Ashlee Cramer: 00:33:44

yeah, my email is Michael Reed kramer@gmail.com The same as my

Ashlee Cramer: 00:33:49

Instagram and yours. What's complicated Ashlee Prouty,

Ashlee Cramer: 00:33:53

Kramer Ashs le EPRLUTYCRAMER at gmail, oh my goodness, it'll be

Ashlee Cramer: 00:34:00

in the show notes. And it'll be actually in the on the links for

Ashlee Cramer: 00:34:05

the social media posts. So don't worry, we're also going to get

Ashlee Cramer: 00:34:08

that Harvard article about Connect.

Howard Brown: 00:34:11

We're gonna post that in there as well. So don't

Howard Brown: 00:34:13

worry about it. And I just took a beautiful screenshot of us

Howard Brown: 00:34:16

with the shades on that will post as well. So alright, wrap

Howard Brown: 00:34:20

up the show. Give me some of your final thoughts that you'd

Howard Brown: 00:34:22

like to share. You Me

Michael Cramer: 00:34:26

You go first. And second to think about this.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:34:30

I have to take these off because it's okay.

Howard Brown: 00:34:32

Were you good? We're good.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:34:33

I love I love the sunglasses though. Yeah, I know

Ashlee Cramer: 00:34:36

thoughts. I think that love. Love is huge. People have asked

Ashlee Cramer: 00:34:45

me a lot of in a lot of interviews. Do you hate cancer?

Ashlee Cramer: 00:34:48

Are you angry at cancer? Because it is definitely took away my

Ashlee Cramer: 00:34:52

husband took away a lot from a lot of things it looks like but

Ashlee Cramer: 00:34:56

I don't hate cancer because I think wasting your time on hate

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:01

and anger doesn't help anything at all. I think love has been

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:06

what has healed us the most. We always say that there's a four

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:10

letter word for cancer. And it's not the F word. It's not

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:16

anything else. Our four letter word has been love. And I really

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:19

believe that with all my heart, we've had so much love. And I

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:22

think giving love. I think it's, you know, reason, Michael, still

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:26

here we have, I feel like we have my husband's love with us

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:28

as well. And I think exactly what you said, I want to

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:32

reinforce what you said, especially for caregivers. Of

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:37

course, we cannot know everything that you went through

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:41

that he went through my son, but he's still going through, I can

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:44

understand everything, just like but I think for caregivers, they

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:47

have their own pain, and they need their own support as well.

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:51

So I encourage caregivers, you know, that I know I've said this

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:56

before, Michael's heard me say it when the oxygen mask comes

Ashlee Cramer: 00:35:58

down, they always say put it on yourself, and then your child,

Ashlee Cramer: 00:36:01

no caregiver is going to do that every single caregiver is going

Ashlee Cramer: 00:36:05

to put it on their child or the first. Okay, put it on them

Ashlee Cramer: 00:36:08

first. But don't forget to put it on yourself too. That's my

Ashlee Cramer: 00:36:12

advice. Beautiful.

Michael Cramer: 00:36:15

Well, my message is, so at 22 years old, I have

Michael Cramer: 00:36:19

osteoporosis, my bones are very hollow. I have avascular

Michael Cramer: 00:36:23

necrosis, basically, meaning I can't lift weights workout, or

Michael Cramer: 00:36:27

do really any physical activity. And because of my graft versus

Michael Cramer: 00:36:31

host disease, I'm basically allergic to the sun. So I can't

Michael Cramer: 00:36:34

really work out, I can't really surf, I can't do any of those

Michael Cramer: 00:36:38

things physically, I can't really travel, I can't go on

Michael Cramer: 00:36:41

vacation, there is no vacation. And for all the people out there

Michael Cramer: 00:36:45

who can work a job, who can go on vacation who can work out,

Michael Cramer: 00:36:51

and you can do things that you know, normal people can do. Just

Michael Cramer: 00:36:55

appreciate that. Because there's a lot of people out there who

Michael Cramer: 00:36:58

are similar to me and in my shoes and have been affected

Michael Cramer: 00:37:00

from that secondary effects of cancer and can't do those

Michael Cramer: 00:37:03

things. So my message is, if you can do those things, just be

Michael Cramer: 00:37:07

grateful because sometimes we wish we wish we were

Michael Cramer: 00:37:11

millionaires enough to work and we can do whatever we wanted.

Michael Cramer: 00:37:13

But in my point of view, the people are healthy and can do

Michael Cramer: 00:37:17

those little things that I wish I could do, or the millionaires

Michael Cramer: 00:37:19

and the richest people. So just take that into perspective.

Howard Brown: 00:37:24

I love it. And I'm going to add another four letter

Howard Brown: 00:37:27

word to your love. And it's I talked about resiliency, and you

Howard Brown: 00:37:31

both have it. I'm going to talk about the four letter word

Howard Brown: 00:37:34

called Hope. Yes. So without hope you don't have you do not

Howard Brown: 00:37:39

have the fuel. Okay, love. Love is that's just automatic. But

Howard Brown: 00:37:44

it's easy to lose hope it's easy to live in that darkness. And,

Howard Brown: 00:37:48

you know, we discussed the title of the show, there is no why I

Howard Brown: 00:37:51

want to just thank you for sharing. This has been

Howard Brown: 00:37:56

absolutely incredible. You know, this, just touch off a lot of

Howard Brown: 00:38:03

feelings for you. And I'm just going to tell you, Michael,

Howard Brown: 00:38:06

you're going to power through it, you are going to be this

Howard Brown: 00:38:08

amazing international award winning keynote speaker because

Howard Brown: 00:38:13

you have so much to say, and I'm going to help you. We're going

Howard Brown: 00:38:17

to get you there. And I just want to tell you I really am

Howard Brown: 00:38:21

sending a lot of love and appreciation for you to come and

Howard Brown: 00:38:24

tell us your voice with me today. For those this is the

Howard Brown: 00:38:28

shining brightly show you can get me at shining brightly.com

Howard Brown: 00:38:31

My book, my podcast speaking and my advocacy are all there. And

Howard Brown: 00:38:36

if we choose to shine brightly, just a little bit each day for

Howard Brown: 00:38:41

ourselves, for others and for our communities, the world will

Howard Brown: 00:38:46

be a better place and thank you

Ashlee Cramer: 00:38:49

thank you so much new shines so brightly how were