Episode 43

THERE IS NO WHY With Ashlee And Michael Cramer

YOUNG ONSET CANCER IS ON THE RISE! In Episode 43 of the Shining Brightly Podcast Show (links in the comments) “THERE IS NO WHY” you will meet Ashlee (mom) and Michael (son) Cramer who share an EXTREMELEY SIMILAR AND EMOTIONAL story to my first stage IV T-cell non-Hodgkins Lymphoma diagnosis, treatment (bone marrow – stem cell transplant from my twin sister) and survivorship in 1989. This amazing young stage IV CANCER patient / survivor and SUPER MOM share their story of shock, treatment, survivorship, courage, strength, hope and PURE LOVE.

Mentioned Resources

Website - https://michaelandmomtalkcancer.com/

Donate - https://michaelandmomtalkcancer.com/donate/

Podcast – https://open.spotify.com/show/49Zkq8eOhzy2hrcUeYdKJy

Instagram Michael - https://www.instagram.com/michaelreidcramer/

Instagram Ashlee - https://www.instagram.com/ashlee_cramer/

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgq_YuUom1SqvsowyWyhu2Q

TikTok Michael - https://www.tiktok.com/@yeahisurf

TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@michaelandmomfightcancer

Ashee's email - ashleeproutycramer@gmail.com

Michael email michaelreidcramer@gmail.com

The app is called Circles.  Free to download in the app store.

Michael's group is Fridays at 5pm, "Cancer Survivor Support Group."

Ashlee’s is Saturdays 10am, "Coping for Cancer Caregivers"

About the guests – Ashlee and Michael Cramer

Let me introduce you to Michael and Ashlee (AKA “mom”). Michael Cramer is a 22-year-old cancer survivor, bone marrow (stem cell) transplant recipient, social media influencer, motivational hero. Quick flashback, Michael was born in Paris, grew up in Miami. He was a surfer, skater, on the Olympic Development team for windsurfing. Ashlee (mom) was a dancer turned early childhood educator turned cancer caregiver. In 2014 her husband was diagnosed with Large B Cell Lymphoma. She became the sole source of income, the caregiver for her husband, as well as mom and dad to their three children. Tragically, he died in 2016, but this only brought the family closer.

July 14, 2020, heartbreak hit again. Michael was diagnosed with an insanely rare and aggressive cancer, Hepatosplenic T-cell lymphoma. Less than 200 documented cases ever. Average survival 8 months. Ashlee quit her job to be with Michael full-time. Miraculously, 3 years later, Michael’s alive. He’s been through chemo, radiation, bone marrow transplant, near fatal GVHD (graft versus host disease), hospital admissions for gastroparesis, liver failure, AVN (avascular necrosis), it goes on. Through it all, Ashlee never left his side, and their relationship became an unbreakable bond. Together the two have taken this heartbreak and found “beauty in pain”. It’s their theme.  That and “love”. The journey of Michael’s cancer became a story to share, a purpose to fulfill. The mother and son

started a podcast, Michael and Mom Talk Cancer, and soon after, a website, a blog, YouTube videos. They use social media to update and inspire, and now they are sharing their inspirational perspective through motivational speaking. Michael is still in treatment for complications from his cancer and bone marrow transplant, but he’s alive and in remission. Michael and Ashlee speak together, doing all they can to fulfill their purpose of love and connection, not only with the cancer community, but with anyone who needs inspiration and motivation.

About the Host:

Howard Brown is a best-selling author, award-winning international speaker, Silicon Valley entrepreneur, interfaith peacemaker, and a two-time stage IV cancer survivor. He is also a sought-after speaker and consultant for corporate businesses, nonprofits, congregations, and community groups. Howard has co-founded two social networks that were the first to connect religious communities around the world. He is a nationally known patient advocate and “cancer whisperer” to many families. Howard, his wife Lisa, and daughter Emily currently reside in Michigan, and his happy place is on the basketball court.

Website: Http://www.shiningbrightly.com

Social Media

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/howard.brown.36

LinkedIn - https://wwwlinkedin.com/in/howardsbrown

Instagram - @howard.brown.36


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#cancer #youngonset #patient #caregiver #bonemarrow #stemcells #transplant #lymphoma #support #life #courage #hope #motivation #education #inspiration #podcast #listen #download #share #review #shiningbrightly


Transcript
Howard Brown:

Hello. It's Howard Brown. This is the Shining

Howard Brown:

Brightly show. Oh my god. I'm not sure I can get through the

Howard Brown:

show. I have the most amazing mom and son, Ashlee and Michael

Howard Brown:

Cramer. And this is bringing back so many memories for me.

Howard Brown:

Because Michael has cancer at a young onset age, and so did I.

Howard Brown:

And I want you to hear this story. This story needs to be

Howard Brown:

heard, because it's a one of pain and hope. And I want this

Howard Brown:

young man to go up and take the world and set it on fire and

Howard Brown:

bring his mom along for the ride two. Guys, Michael and Ashlee,

Howard Brown:

welcome. How are you today?

Ashlee Cramer:

Thank you so much. You're already making me

Ashlee Cramer:

cry.

Howard Brown:

That's okay. Crying out loud crying so loud.

Michael Cramer:

introduction. Thank you so amazing.

Howard Brown:

I want you guys to do something for me because I

Howard Brown:

have your bio. But this is more important to me because the

Howard Brown:

caregiver patient, the mom and son relationship. It's

Howard Brown:

unbreakable. And I have this with my mom and dad as well.

Howard Brown:

Because at age 23, I ran home to mom and dad and they cared for

Howard Brown:

me. And when you're immunosuppressed like a boy in

Howard Brown:

the bubble, you got to be careful. So I think we're going

Howard Brown:

to do is we're going to do mom and son he said she said I would

Howard Brown:

like you Michael to start and please give me your mom's bio.

Howard Brown:

And tell me about Ashlee.

Michael Cramer:

Ashlee Cramer is one of the strongest, smartest

Michael Cramer:

and most kind people on this earth. And she's not just an

Michael Cramer:

amazing caregiver speaker podcaster YouTuber everything

Michael Cramer:

she does, she's just an amazing person and everyone that she

Michael Cramer:

comes in contact with. It's just falls in love with her. You

Michael Cramer:

know, she leads a caregiver support group and everyone raves

Michael Cramer:

about it. She's just the best mother I could ever ask for. And

Michael Cramer:

there's too much to be said about Ashlee Cramer because her

Michael Cramer:

heart is just so big.

Ashlee Cramer:

And now I am going to cry. But first, first,

Ashlee Cramer:

I might cry too. But first let me introduce you to Michael Reed

Ashlee Cramer:

Cramer. He's my middle kid. He is now 22 years old. This kid

Ashlee Cramer:

was a surfer. He will tell you this a sailor. He was on the

Ashlee Cramer:

Olympic development team for windsurfing, athletic, amazing,

Ashlee Cramer:

you know, kid did beautifully in school. But when he was in

Ashlee Cramer:

college, in his first year of college, I'm not gonna go into

Ashlee Cramer:

his story. He was diagnosed with cancer. And out of that.I don't

Ashlee Cramer:

know, he was always a great kid. But he became this inspiration.

Ashlee Cramer:

And I am so blessed to be his mom. Plus the fact that as a 19

Ashlee Cramer:

year old, he was diagnosed at 19. He's been willing to hang

Ashlee Cramer:

out with his mom. He's a really good rapper. He can play the

Ashlee Cramer:

guitar. He likes Legos. And he is a beautiful Speaker himself.

Ashlee Cramer:

And he has a heart that is huge. And he also leads the cancer

Ashlee Cramer:

support group for survivors. People going through cancer and

Ashlee Cramer:

I am just the proudest moment ever.

Howard Brown:

Well, you've been through a lot, and it's bonded

Howard Brown:

you and I'm sure you need your alone time to as a 19 year old

Howard Brown:

would want some of that, of course. But thank you for such a

Howard Brown:

beautiful introduction of each other. It's it's really amazing,

Howard Brown:

becauselarge B cell lymphoma entered your life first. And I

Howard Brown:

want you Ashlee now, because you're also a widow and you lost

Howard Brown:

your husband. Will you take us through that first start because

Howard Brown:

it leads into your resilience story. And but you lost your

Howard Brown:

husband. Can you start there, please?

Ashlee Cramer:

Yeah, I did. So in 2014, December to actually my

Ashlee Cramer:

husband was just having back pain. And we literally thought

Ashlee Cramer:

like he went to do an MRI. We didn't think anything of it. And

Ashlee Cramer:

he was diagnosed with large B cell lymphoma, which is one of

Ashlee Cramer:

the more treatable cancers. I really believed when he was

Ashlee Cramer:

diagnosed with all my heart I believed that maybe it was just

Ashlee Cramer:

like something from God or the universe, whatever, like making

Ashlee Cramer:

us appreciate life more giving us more perspective. And I

Ashlee Cramer:

really thought he's going to come through this and he's going

Ashlee Cramer:

to be better than that. Ever. And instead, 17 months after

Ashlee Cramer:

diagnosis, he passed away. He was in hospice and he was at

Ashlee Cramer:

home and like, the beautiful thing was the three children.

Ashlee Cramer:

and myself were actually with him. Like the moment he took his

Ashlee Cramer:

last breath. We were all hugging him, which is a blessing. And we

Ashlee Cramer:

were literally saying, you know, I love you when he took his last

Ashlee Cramer:

breath. But yeah, it was, it was a challenge. My kids at the time

Ashlee Cramer:

were, my daughter was 12. Michael was 14, my other son was

Ashlee Cramer:

16. And there I was, I really at that time, what I when he was

Ashlee Cramer:

going through chemo and everything, I felt like my

Ashlee Cramer:

biggest thing was, let me take care of the kids. And I worked

Ashlee Cramer:

as much as I could take care of the kids. So Patrice could focus

Ashlee Cramer:

on healing. My husband's name was Patrice. And with Michael

Ashlee Cramer:

was a different story. It was more I was with him 24/7 with my

Ashlee Cramer:

husband, sometimes I felt like I was trying to take all the

Ashlee Cramer:

burden the adult burdens off of him. But I was a widow at a

Ashlee Cramer:

young at a young age. And it did teach us a lot. It brought us

Ashlee Cramer:

very close together. I feel like my kids didn't really go through

Ashlee Cramer:

the bad teenage years, because we were so close. Not that

Ashlee Cramer:

they're perfect. But yeah,

Howard Brown:

thank you for sharing that. And Michael, you

Howard Brown:

lost your dad. And what were you were, how are you, your

Howard Brown:

siblings? How did you get through.

Michael Cramer:

So I was 14, when he passed away, about to

Michael Cramer:

turn 15. And I turned 15, a week after he passed away, actually.

Michael Cramer:

So I was very, very young. But it was really shocking, because

Michael Cramer:

cancer was one of those things that when I was 14, you just

Michael Cramer:

like, started to understand what it was, like when you were a

Michael Cramer:

kid, maybe you understood what cancer was. But then when you're

Michael Cramer:

14, and you see your father get cancer, and you see him go bald,

Michael Cramer:

and you see him go get sick, and it's just like, really scary.

Michael Cramer:

And when he passed away, it was really devastating. Because ever

Michael Cramer:

since I was a young kid, my dad was this big, strong guy, you

Michael Cramer:

kind of could do anything, you know, he was like, he was my

Michael Cramer:

father, you know, and he was the guy that would be kind of tough

Michael Cramer:

in the family and say the things to us that was like, Oh, he's so

Michael Cramer:

strong, and he was big, and he was built and he was buff, and

Michael Cramer:

he was just a cool guy and and then to see him get so weak

Michael Cramer:

physically and turn to this really skinny cancer patient and

Michael Cramer:

and watch him pass away was just so devastating. And it really

Michael Cramer:

just brought us this light on how fragile life is and seeing

Michael Cramer:

someone pass away at a young age. Not a lot of people see

Michael Cramer:

that. So really, I was torn. We really had an appreciation for

Michael Cramer:

like my mom and everything she did, and for our family members.

Michael Cramer:

And we're given this different perspective at a young age, so

Michael Cramer:

we wouldn't have got otherwise which, of course, I wish we

Michael Cramer:

didn't have to get that perspective. But it was a

Michael Cramer:

blessing in disguise, like you say sometimes because it really

Michael Cramer:

made us closer and my mom and I became like best friends after

Michael Cramer:

that happened. And again, it kind of set like the tone for a

Michael Cramer:

while when I got cancer that we were going to stick together no

Michael Cramer:

matter what

Ashlee Cramer:

I just wanted wanted to add was, was a that

Ashlee Cramer:

was a thing for me. When he came home like I truly did not think

Ashlee Cramer:

he was going to die. And when they told everyone to hospice, I

Ashlee Cramer:

was shocked. And my mom who's a beautiful human was like, I

Ashlee Cramer:

don't think you should have him in hospice at home, maybe in

Ashlee Cramer:

hospice centre, because I can Are you okay to have the kids

Ashlee Cramer:

watch him. And he wanted to be at home. And so how could you

Ashlee Cramer:

know, of course, but I was really grateful he was at home

Ashlee Cramer:

because as hard as it was to be with him in his last moments. It

Ashlee Cramer:

was it was beautiful and peaceful. And even though they

Ashlee Cramer:

were young, I think it was really important that they saw

Ashlee Cramer:

their father through till the end of his physical life, even

Ashlee Cramer:

though we still feel like he's with us. I'm telling you,

Howard Brown:

I'm telling you, he is with you. In the cancer

Howard Brown:

world, unfortunately, in the stage for specific later stages,

Howard Brown:

we live with death, people, the cancer burden becomes too great.

Howard Brown:

It's not that they didn't want to keep living, and they're

Howard Brown:

called to heaven. In the Jewish religion, I want to take a

Howard Brown:

second I just want to honour him. So in this world, you leave

Howard Brown:

with nothing. Okay? But you leave with your name and your

Howard Brown:

memory. So there's a Jewish blessing that I'm going to just

Howard Brown:

quickly recite right now in honouring him and honouring his

Howard Brown:

memory. So we say, May Patrice's purchase his name and memory be

Howard Brown:

only for a blessing for all of those who knew and loved him.

Howard Brown:

And I just he heard that we're talking to you now Patrice,

Howard Brown:

because you'll never be forgotten and that's, that's the

Howard Brown:

only thing your job is to just take Him into your heart and

Howard Brown:

meant remember him and say his name. Those are the only two

Howard Brown:

things you leave with. You don't even get 144 characters on your

Howard Brown:

tombstone, you get loving dad and husband. So I wanted to

Howard Brown:

honour him for that. For that now, now things you're trying to

Howard Brown:

repair from not you know growing up without your dad and your

Howard Brown:

surfen you're doing well you get into school. And now let's

Howard Brown:

transition. Michael, I'm not sure Ashlee who wants to start

Howard Brown:

but transition into your story now of how you got diagnosed.

Michael Cramer:

Yeah. So like you said, went through high

Michael Cramer:

school. And then I started college and we're home from

Michael Cramer:

COVID COVID hit Miami hit Florida. And we were I was home.

Michael Cramer:

I remember I started to feel pretty tired. It was like March

Michael Cramer:

of 2020. And that's when it was really big. The pandemic there

Michael Cramer:

was just like, boom, everything was shut down. And I was just

Michael Cramer:

tired, like I said, and for a few months that exhaustion and

Michael Cramer:

tiredness dragged on. But of course, we were so locked down,

Michael Cramer:

wasn't in school wasn't in the gym wasn't surfing beaches were

Michael Cramer:

closed. And again, I blamed it on that. I thought, whatever.

Michael Cramer:

Maybe I'm a little depressed. It's been kind of tough. We're

Michael Cramer:

home, not doing much. And then all of a sudden, I start to get

Michael Cramer:

these night sweats. And I thought, Okay, well, it's almost

Michael Cramer:

summer. It's pretty hot. It makes sense. And then it kept

Michael Cramer:

going on and on and on. And eventually, one of the beaches

Michael Cramer:

in North Florida opened up so my friends and I went and we went

Michael Cramer:

surfing in the beach called New Smyrna Beach, I came back home,

Michael Cramer:

I felt really good because like, oh, I went surfing, I feel so

Michael Cramer:

good. And then a week later, I started to get fevers. And

Michael Cramer:

that's when we knew something was wrong. So my mom and I

Michael Cramer:

started to call my family a paediatrician with this lady.

Michael Cramer:

We've been seeing, like my whole life when I was 19. She saw her

Michael Cramer:

21

Ashlee Cramer:

She's our family doctor, she still calls me. Yes,

Ashlee Cramer:

yeah, of course.

Michael Cramer:

I saw her over telehealth zoom at first. And

Michael Cramer:

she's like, Oh, you You seem fine. But if you want, you can

Michael Cramer:

come in for some blood work. So I came in for some blood work,

Michael Cramer:

and went back home that day. And a few days later, she called my

Michael Cramer:

mom. And my mom called me and my mom was like, we have to go to

Michael Cramer:

see a blood specialist and Nicholas Children's Hospital.

Michael Cramer:

And I wasn't thinking anything at this point. We thought I was

Michael Cramer:

anaemic. You know,

Ashlee Cramer:

definitely. I'm a vegan. I was like, Maybe I not

Ashlee Cramer:

giving him enough red meat. And also, you know, when she said to

Ashlee Cramer:

me, I want you to see, I want you to see this friend of mine.

Ashlee Cramer:

He's a blood specialist. And she's like, he's a good friend

Ashlee Cramer:

of mine. So the fact that she said that Nicholas Children's

Ashlee Cramer:

Hospital, I didn't think oh, it's serious. We're going to the

Ashlee Cramer:

hospital. She's like, he's a good friend of mine. I think you

Ashlee Cramer:

should go see him. He's a great guy. Great doctor. So I was

Ashlee Cramer:

like, okay, so I call Michael up. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, they

Ashlee Cramer:

got us an appointment today, the same day, she gets the bloodwork

Ashlee Cramer:

back, and we can go see him. Great. We're gonna find out

Ashlee Cramer:

what's wrong with you....cancer. I don't know what we neither one

Ashlee Cramer:

of us that didn't enter our mind.

Howard Brown:

So I just to give you some relatable here is that

Howard Brown:

I'm now 23 and a half years old. I'm driving out to Dayton, Ohio

Howard Brown:

for a big promotion as a national director of NCR

Howard Brown:

Corporation. And I have a little red bump on my cheek. And I get

Howard Brown:

out and Michael, you might not have ever used a payphone. But I

Howard Brown:

got out and use the payphone to call my mom and say, you know

Howard Brown:

that there's something there and I'm looking in the rearview

Howard Brown:

mirror and I keep seeing it. And it got bigger than she came out

Howard Brown:

to sit up my apartment. I flew back to Boston, this is this is

Howard Brown:

1989 We had no cell phones, no computer, there was no

Howard Brown:

telemedicine, you know, the analogue days, you know,

Howard Brown:

computer uses just starting and eventually grow. So I actually

Howard Brown:

had a symbol there, if that didn't come out, I would have

Howard Brown:

died. It came out. And I knew there was something wrong, but I

Howard Brown:

thought it was a cyst. And it took them many weeks to figure

Howard Brown:

out what I had. And until I actually got the word that I was

Howard Brown:

going to Dana Farber Cancer Institute. I didn't even think

Howard Brown:

about cancer at all. And my dad had to get a book on cancer,

Howard Brown:

because we didn't have any experience. I didn't know

Howard Brown:

anything. So deer in the headlights just just stops you

Howard Brown:

in the tracks. And that's what I wanted to say as a point of

Howard Brown:

emphasis is that you had no idea what you were walking into. It

Howard Brown:

just bank smacks you and it stops everything right then in

Howard Brown:

there. So I continue. Let's go get blood and now we're figuring

Howard Brown:

this thing out now.

Michael Cramer:

Yeah, so I went to the doctor, once the doctor's

Michael Cramer:

office just wasn't thinking anything. I remember sitting

Michael Cramer:

there looking around, not noticing anyone that had like, I

Michael Cramer:

don't know how I didn't notice I was in an oncology office. I

Michael Cramer:

mean, it's haematology oncology, but when thinking haematology, I

Michael Cramer:

don't know. That wasn't the GI anything and we were basically

Michael Cramer:

in the cancer office. And to get the bloodwork done. The doctor

Michael Cramer:

is super really he's just really a nice guy. So he's so nice. And

Michael Cramer:

he tells me Do you want to spend the night in the hospital and do

Michael Cramer:

a bone marrow biopsy tomorrow morning and I was like you're

Michael Cramer:

crazy. I'm not saying And then hospital, spent the night in the

Michael Cramer:

hospital. And so we come back the next day and do the biopsy.

Michael Cramer:

And I remember I was just nervous to go under anaesthesia

Michael Cramer:

because they did under anaesthesia at the total

Michael Cramer:

hospital. Yeah, we're waking up from the anaesthesia and the

Michael Cramer:

doctor walked in. The first thing is a doctor walks in and

Michael Cramer:

of course he looks at the biopsy and tells me how leukaemia Slash

Michael Cramer:

Lymphoma. And from there, it's just like a blur. I'm just

Michael Cramer:

getting taken to the sixth floor of the hospital, out of poor

Michael Cramer:

place in the next day, and this is going to start chemotherapy

Michael Cramer:

right away. But instead, my mom and I, we spent a week in the

Michael Cramer:

hospital together because they couldn't figure out my official

Michael Cramer:

diagnosis to so rare that thought, initially I just had,

Michael Cramer:

oh, it's blood cancer, so it's either going to be leukaemia or

Michael Cramer:

lymphoma, it will be diagnosed within 24 hours.

Ashlee Cramer:

They were really they were like maybe it's AML.

Ashlee Cramer:

Maybe it's L depending on those two, we'll see what your chemo

Ashlee Cramer:

protocol will be. And we talked

Howard Brown:

Hold on Ashlee, for those listening, a bone

Howard Brown:

marrow aspirate, and I've had a number of those too. I didn't

Howard Brown:

have them with any anaesthesia, except for numbing the skin.

Howard Brown:

really frickin painful. That's a needle into the bone. And then

Howard Brown:

it's a needle, expunging the actual bone marrow out of the

Howard Brown:

bone. Both of those hurt like a mother. They really hurt. So I'm

Howard Brown:

glad they did it under anaesthesia for you for you. The

Howard Brown:

second thing is that ALL MLL their forms of leukaemia, okay

Howard Brown:

and they're just have different names. So my non Hodgkins

Howard Brown:

lymphoma, that's blood cancer of the lymphatic system. But yours

Howard Brown:

I have to tell you until I met you never heard of it.

Ashlee Cramer:

Because there's less than 200 documented cases.

Ashlee Cramer:

And there's only a handful of survivors. The only there is no

Ashlee Cramer:

protocol. You know how every cancer has a protocol there is

Ashlee Cramer:

there is no key like the few survivors that we have come in

Ashlee Cramer:

contact with. There's there's two others that I've been in

Ashlee Cramer:

touch with had different chemos than Michael. But the two that

Ashlee Cramer:

we know, both went through bone marrow transplants and are still

Ashlee Cramer:

alive today. At one of them is three years out. One of them is

Ashlee Cramer:

I think five years out. So you know, it's if they asked us when

Ashlee Cramer:

they talked when they finally figured it took through. It's

Ashlee Cramer:

very you know, I'm gonna tell you really quickly the

Ashlee Cramer:

pathologist at Nicklaus Children's Hospital actually saw

Ashlee Cramer:

there was a woman she we found out this after she diagnosed him

Ashlee Cramer:

with with howto splenic T cell lymphoma right away within like

Ashlee Cramer:

four hours. But she said to the oncologist, please get second,

Ashlee Cramer:

third fourth opinions, because I've never actually seen it.

Ashlee Cramer:

I've only seen it in the textbooks. And I don't want to

Ashlee Cramer:

be wrong. So I noticed but then said, to get other pathologists

Ashlee Cramer:

to agree with me because I I've never seen this before. How is

Ashlee Cramer:

it possible that this knife has it? So they really it took them

Ashlee Cramer:

three weeks because they ended up getting five other opinions

Ashlee Cramer:

from 500 hospitals around the country. And they all agreed. So

Ashlee Cramer:

those three weeks though were a little bit of torture, because

Ashlee Cramer:

he you know, he told us within 24 to 48 hours, we'll have your

Ashlee Cramer:

diagnosis and start chemo and it was 24 hours. He's like, we'll

Ashlee Cramer:

figure it out soon. 48 hours. And then finally after a week,

Ashlee Cramer:

he did start Michael on a steroid called dexamethasone,

Ashlee Cramer:

because he said all blood cancers usually end up this is

Ashlee Cramer:

somewhere in the protocol. And he's like, maybe this will at

Ashlee Cramer:

least stop it from getting worse. I swear he saved

Ashlee Cramer:

Michael's life by starting him on dexamethasone. Because the

Ashlee Cramer:

majority of people that are diagnosed with this cancer end

Ashlee Cramer:

up passing away before they get diagnosed. Right, of course. So

Ashlee Cramer:

I paint that agony of not knowing my parents lost a tonne

Ashlee Cramer:

of weight.

Howard Brown:

Again, this is no cell phones, this is busy

Howard Brown:

signals. And I was off doing my thing because I felt good except

Howard Brown:

for this big red bump that was getting to be purple as a golf

Howard Brown:

ball. I wanted to ask you something, Michael. And again,

Howard Brown:

this is something that I got very lucky on. I was coming in

Howard Brown:

to do chemotherapy in October of 1989. My first one scared, just

Howard Brown:

didn't sleep at all. And I tested my blood tests and they

Howard Brown:

came back and said My basically my liver function was too high.

Howard Brown:

Well, my liver function was too high. They're not doing chemo

Howard Brown:

today. And I was like, What are we going to do? You just told me

Howard Brown:

I you know, six months to live or less three to six months. And

Howard Brown:

my doctor Eric Rubin said, We're going on a field trip today.

Howard Brown:

We're going to the cryogenic centre. And I was like cryo,

Howard Brown:

what is that? He goes into the sperm bank. And I want to tell

Howard Brown:

you that that the fact that he did that then in 1989 was quite

Howard Brown:

rare. Although they're doing it and it's still sometimes they

Howard Brown:

don't talk about it now. Did they talk to you about fertility

Howard Brown:

and preservation? Because that was very rare thing. And the

Howard Brown:

bonus is miracle two, you know, Miracle one, my twin sister

Howard Brown:

saved me from a bone marrow transplant and I showed you guys

Howard Brown:

This is the back of life. Miracle to is that frozen sperm

Howard Brown:

11 years later gave me a beautiful, healthy daughter

Howard Brown:

Emily, who just graduated University of Michigan is a TV

Howard Brown:

reporter in Montana now, so I want to hear a little bit about

Howard Brown:

that story about how they talk to you.

Michael Cramer:

Yeah, I mean, it was just hey, chemo can make you

Michael Cramer:

infertile. So here is a little specimen, whatever you call it,

Michael Cramer:

nut bag, a little specimen bottle, a little, little bottle.

Michael Cramer:

Yeah, yes, you need to ejaculate in it. And yeah, we're going to

Michael Cramer:

send Oh, they asked, they first asked, Would you like to press

Michael Cramer:

the I don't even remember, he doesn't remember? Of course, I

Michael Cramer:

was in so much. I don't remember exactly what happens when we're

Michael Cramer:

getting a little thing here. Ejaculate. And we're gonna

Michael Cramer:

freeze you. Maybe you'll have kids one day. Yeah. But that was

Michael Cramer:

pretty much how it went?

Howard Brown:

Well, first of all, I'm really glad they did.

Howard Brown:

Because now you have a choice. Listen, you could always adopt

Howard Brown:

or actually have surrogacy, but you now we're at the right time,

Howard Brown:

you will have a choice like I did. And I just wish that upon

Howard Brown:

you. Because I thought that was taken away from me, as well. And

Howard Brown:

many cancer patients, young onset cancer patients that is

Howard Brown:

taken away from them, they just go right into treatment, and

Howard Brown:

they can't or if they're too young, you know, below puberty

Howard Brown:

age, they're not worried about that. They want to save your

Howard Brown:

life. And I was not thinking about that either. I basically

Howard Brown:

did it just like you, I don't even remember it. I went there.

Howard Brown:

You know, and I don't even really remember anything else

Howard Brown:

after that. But I then I got it, then we get a bill and I pay for

Howard Brown:

it. But when I'm married, and my wife says, You know what, you

Howard Brown:

know, we want to have a family together. And we're living in

Howard Brown:

Silicon Valley at the time. What a blessing to be able to do

Howard Brown:

that, and have a healthy baby and be able to become a dad. I

Howard Brown:

wish that upon you on the right circumstances, if you can. So

Howard Brown:

thank you for sharing that. And I'm really glad the the blessing

Howard Brown:

and the genius of your doctors and more doctors to actually

Howard Brown:

talk about fertility and all that. So I want to talk a little

Howard Brown:

bit about some symptoms. And then we're going to talk about

Howard Brown:

what you guys are doing currently. But you've had a

Howard Brown:

rough go after transplant. And did you do your own cells? Or

Howard Brown:

did you get a donor?

Michael Cramer:

No, if I had my own cells, I wouldn't have had a

Michael Cramer:

rough go because that would have meant I wouldn't have been able

Michael Cramer:

to get graft versus host disease. So I you also wouldn't

Michael Cramer:

have survived. Yeah, it

Howard Brown:

might not have lived right if you did your own.

Howard Brown:

Right,

Michael Cramer:

definitely.

Howard Brown:

So you have you had a donor match.

Michael Cramer:

Yeah. 100% match from Germany. 10 out of 10 gave

Michael Cramer:

me his cells. And right away. I mean, I got engraftment

Michael Cramer:

syndrome, which was brutal. I mean, that gave me so much

Michael Cramer:

swellings, my heart and lungs. I almost passed away one day and I

Michael Cramer:

had so many hallucinations. It was it was crazy. Just right off

Michael Cramer:

the bat. The stem cell transplant was just like finding

Michael Cramer:

my body. And then a few weeks later, I'd had these identical

Michael Cramer:

rashes on my, my thighs and my arms which were graft versus

Michael Cramer:

host disease of the skin. Which basically meant that it was

Michael Cramer:

rejecting my body was donor stem cells, rejecting my body and

Michael Cramer:

just finding it. And then I develop liver GVHD, gi GVHD. And

Michael Cramer:

now I have chronic GVHD. It's been like this whole thing that

Michael Cramer:

now I live with it. It's like, a set. It's basically like a

Michael Cramer:

second cancer. It's probably it's even, it's even worse than

Michael Cramer:

cancer. Honestly, GVHD setpoints it's really horrible. What I

Michael Cramer:

live with, and I'm still in treatment. I do a treatment

Michael Cramer:

called extra corporal photo for Rhesus, which sounds very

Michael Cramer:

confusing, but what they do is they've access my poor was

Michael Cramer:

double board with two needles and hooked me up to this

Michael Cramer:

machine. And the machine takes out my blood separates the white

Michael Cramer:

blood cells weakens them and returns it to me. I'll do that

Michael Cramer:

twice a week. And the whole idea is to calm down my overactive

Michael Cramer:

immune system, which is what GVHD is, it's kind of like,

Michael Cramer:

insane, like autoimmune disease. Like it just goes crazy and

Michael Cramer:

attacks all part of your all parts of your body.

Howard Brown:

And you're doing that twice a week still.

Michael Cramer:

Yeah. Okay.

Howard Brown:

And for the foreseeable future, we'll do it.

Michael Cramer:

Yeah, I mean, hopefully it'll be reduced and

Michael Cramer:

eventually I can get off of it. But as of now, it's that plus

Michael Cramer:

immunosuppressants. So it's still like, you know, a full

Michael Cramer:

time thing. The whole being in the hospital and what was your

Michael Cramer:

What was your transplant date? October 27 2020.

Howard Brown:

Notice how we remember that mine was May 24

Howard Brown:

1990. I did have some graft versus host disease. My twin

Howard Brown:

sister was a one in 25,000 chance of being a match but I

Howard Brown:

was attend for 10 HLA matches well, and they said because she

Howard Brown:

was woman and we had enough the same, but I still had some, but

Howard Brown:

I only had pink skin. I turned like the Pink Panther for a

Howard Brown:

short time, and I was itchy, but they were monitoring me and And

Howard Brown:

that's not what you've been through, you've been through a

Howard Brown:

lot worse right now, and still kind of chugging along through

Howard Brown:

that. So thank you for sharing that. I mean, graft versus host

Howard Brown:

disease is your friend, but also not your friend when you take

Howard Brown:

someone else's, you know, bone marrow or or even like someone

Howard Brown:

when they actually have a kidney or a heart. I mean, that's not

Howard Brown:

normal. The body wants to fight that. Yeah, they don't want to

Howard Brown:

accept it. So but it's gotten you here, you're still dealing

Howard Brown:

with some of these after effects. But yeah, but man, you

Howard Brown:

look like a great looking surfer. And, you know, wind

Howard Brown:

surfer to me, but this is all good. I want to take the next,

Howard Brown:

you know, five or six minutes of the show here, and be able to

Howard Brown:

talk about what you've learned, talk about what you're doing.

Howard Brown:

And, and then talk about, you know, some of your hopes for the

Howard Brown:

for the future. I, you know, getting cancer for the second

Howard Brown:

time for me, I put things in a lot shorter time cycle, I wasn't

Howard Brown:

thinking I was getting for long term, I was thinking about

Howard Brown:

couple years seeing my daughter graduated high school, a couple

Howard Brown:

more years seeing her graduate college. And now that I'm going

Howard Brown:

to be four years net, no evidence of disease in September

Howard Brown:

20. You know, what, I'm putting it out there that I'm, I'm gonna

Howard Brown:

walk her down the aisle at the right time. And so, I know we

Howard Brown:

live in short cycles, okay, because we don't take anything

Howard Brown:

for granted. So I want both of you to tell me, bring me up,

Howard Brown:

bring bring our audience up to speed as to what you're doing,

Howard Brown:

how you feel, anything you want, and, and some of the things that

Howard Brown:

some of your hopes.

Michael Cramer:

So what we're doing is, we are Michael Mom

Michael Cramer:

taught cancer, and, as you guys have heard, and as you know, are

Michael Cramer:

still in the hospital a little bit. But I think that we just

Michael Cramer:

want to spread our message of love, and hope around the world

Michael Cramer:

and help as many people as, as we can. You know, it's been one

Michael Cramer:

crazy journey. And there's been a lot that we have gone through

Michael Cramer:

together. And if there's one thing that we've learned, it's

Michael Cramer:

just to love and appreciate life. And that life can be taken

Michael Cramer:

away from you at any moment, you know, and so can someone you

Michael Cramer:

love. So it's just about really loving the people around you

Michael Cramer:

being grateful for what you have and living to the fullest.

Michael Cramer:

Because I could go back, you know, when I was healthy, and

Michael Cramer:

have the perspective that I had now, I mean, the things I would

Michael Cramer:

do, I would be so much more grateful for them and so much

Michael Cramer:

more appreciative. And that's really everything is just

Michael Cramer:

perspective. And that's all, all we're about here is perspective.

Ashlee Cramer:

What happened was in 2021, so Michael had his stem

Ashlee Cramer:

cell transplant October 27, of 2020, when he started getting

Ashlee Cramer:

the chronic graft versus host disease, we were like, you know

Ashlee Cramer:

why this gives us a lot of purpose. This gives us more time

Ashlee Cramer:

though in the hospital, we were in the hospital a lot at that

Ashlee Cramer:

time. He was in and out like admitted that not even just for

Ashlee Cramer:

the day, they could be admitted for weeks at a time. And we said

Ashlee Cramer:

you know what, let's, we have to do something with this time

Ashlee Cramer:

that's productive and valuable. So we started the podcast. And

Ashlee Cramer:

when we started, we were we had such I mean, we were together

Ashlee Cramer:

anyway, all the time. But we have such a great connection.

Ashlee Cramer:

And then we started doing like rap videos together. And we just

Ashlee Cramer:

we just realised that the more because we have felt so much

Ashlee Cramer:

support at the very beginning of this journey. One of the first

Ashlee Cramer:

Instagram posts I did was I remember saying, Wow, I'm an OB,

Ashlee Cramer:

I am an optimist. And I always thought people are so good. But

Ashlee Cramer:

when this happened to Michael, the outpouring of love, was it

Ashlee Cramer:

even me this optimism blew my mind about how people were so

Ashlee Cramer:

good, and gave us so much love and support. And the people at

Ashlee Cramer:

the hospital and the nurses and the doctors and the people that

Ashlee Cramer:

clean the room. And the godly, we have felt so much love. And

Ashlee Cramer:

it's been so reciprocal. And I think it's been a great lesson

Ashlee Cramer:

on connection. And how important connection is I don't know if

Ashlee Cramer:

you know about that Harvard study that came out recently

Ashlee Cramer:

talking about connection. That's like one of the like, the most

Ashlee Cramer:

important things with longevity and health. And happiness is

Ashlee Cramer:

connection. I think that has been huge for us. We've had a

Ashlee Cramer:

connection together plus with other people. And it is true

Ashlee Cramer:

what Michael said, like perspective is so big. It just

Ashlee Cramer:

gives you so much more perspective on life. And such a

Ashlee Cramer:

purpose. I feel like we've had such a purpose. I'm so grateful

Ashlee Cramer:

that as a 19 year old now he's 22 But he is I don't want to say

Ashlee Cramer:

yes, he's embraced this journey. Because it's a hard age to to

Ashlee Cramer:

share your vulnerability so much. You know, and I think we

Ashlee Cramer:

just feel like if we're going through this we Wanna make it

Ashlee Cramer:

matter, and it's given us an EN, we are still in the hospital, I

Ashlee Cramer:

can't go back to my full time job. And so we're like, Well,

Ashlee Cramer:

let's take something and make something out of this. And it's,

Ashlee Cramer:

we've touched like so many people touch us, and we just

Ashlee Cramer:

want to give it back to, it's given a great purpose for us.

Howard Brown:

I know what those days in and out of the hospital

Howard Brown:

I had 120 blood transfusions and platelets and thinking back now

Howard Brown:

33 years, and then having it lightning strike again with

Howard Brown:

stage four cancer at age 50. And now getting through it, even I

Howard Brown:

hear you and I feel it much. And you know, we have a mantra in

Howard Brown:

the cancer world, at least in the men's group that I'm in

Howard Brown:

called k, f, g, and KF G stands for keep effing going. Because

Howard Brown:

you don't have any other choice. You don't have any other choice.

Howard Brown:

And so we say that mantra, we don't take it for for granted.

Howard Brown:

There are bad days, and then you have your good days and you

Howard Brown:

maximise your, your good days. But Michael, I think it's so

Howard Brown:

important. Okay, I mentor to a young man named Christian who

Howard Brown:

had leukaemia when I was, you know, in the hospital age 23. He

Howard Brown:

did not make it, but I knew him for a year, but we were always

Howard Brown:

in the hospital or, you know, both moms who go out for a

Howard Brown:

cigarette, you know, you know, because they so much stress

Howard Brown:

being a caregiver. But I think your message to and the support

Howard Brown:

group that you lead for young onset is so important. Because

Howard Brown:

your teenage years, just got cut short, a little bit, and now

Howard Brown:

you're getting some of it back. And so it's so, so important.

Howard Brown:

And then also for you actually, being a mom being a caregiver,

Howard Brown:

you have two other children here that are helping and supporting

Howard Brown:

you, as well. And you have to see how they're doing. Yeah,

Howard Brown:

because that's the thing and cancer too, for me is that we no

Howard Brown:

one was asking my daughter, how she was doing. How's your dad,

Howard Brown:

How's your dad, How's your dad, How's your dad, your dad's gonna

Howard Brown:

die. And we forgot about her a little bit not we didn't forget

Howard Brown:

about it. But she she was dealing with such an intensity,

Howard Brown:

she actually is taking her now to kind of deal with it, and get

Howard Brown:

some support for that and, and help and all that. And here's my

Howard Brown:

three things. One, you have to be selfish in your time of need

Howard Brown:

accept help, too. If you can't find help, help can be provided

Howard Brown:

for you. All right, and you need to be able to do that. And so I

Howard Brown:

mentor over the Imerman Angels, mostly men, but I've had some

Howard Brown:

women that have stage four colon cancer, because I'm five steps

Howard Brown:

ahead. And so Michael, I look at you as like a little brother,

Howard Brown:

okay. And we're bonded now for life because of your experience

Howard Brown:

and and now our friendship and I just want to tell you that you

Howard Brown:

touch me, because I don't want anyone to walk in the steps that

Howard Brown:

we've had to do. It's just horrible. And for you, Ashlee

Howard Brown:

you're an angel on this earth, just like my wife, Lisa, just

Howard Brown:

like my parents, you are an angel, because of your

Howard Brown:

dedication and your ability to do this and now using your voice

Howard Brown:

to share with others. So I want to we're gonna put on my

Howard Brown:

sunglasses. Now for those that are just listening. We are in

Howard Brown:

the shining brightly spotlight. And I would like you both to one

Howard Brown:

tell how people can get in touch with you, you know, your

Howard Brown:

website, your social channels, and then I'd like each to give a

Howard Brown:

final comment and then throw the show back to me.

Michael Cramer:

But for my son, yeah. All right.

Howard Brown:

You gotta be you gotta wear shades. So shining so

Howard Brown:

it's shining brightly with love. So we got his wear shaved. So go

Howard Brown:

ahead, tell us how they get in touch with you.

Michael Cramer:

You can go to WWE dot Michael and Mom taught

Michael Cramer:

cancer.com Or go to our Instagram at Michael Reid Cramer

Michael Cramer:

mi ch il or ei D CRAMER or Ashlee Cramer.

Ashlee Cramer:

S H L E. C r a n er? Yes. Or you can email us

Ashlee Cramer:

yeah, my email is Michael Reed kramer@gmail.com The same as my

Ashlee Cramer:

Instagram and yours. What's complicated Ashlee Prouty,

Ashlee Cramer:

Kramer Ashs le EPRLUTYCRAMER at gmail, oh my goodness, it'll be

Ashlee Cramer:

in the show notes. And it'll be actually in the on the links for

Ashlee Cramer:

the social media posts. So don't worry, we're also going to get

Ashlee Cramer:

that Harvard article about Connect.

Howard Brown:

We're gonna post that in there as well. So don't

Howard Brown:

worry about it. And I just took a beautiful screenshot of us

Howard Brown:

with the shades on that will post as well. So alright, wrap

Howard Brown:

up the show. Give me some of your final thoughts that you'd

Howard Brown:

like to share. You Me

Michael Cramer:

You go first. And second to think about this.

Ashlee Cramer:

I have to take these off because it's okay.

Howard Brown:

Were you good? We're good.

Ashlee Cramer:

I love I love the sunglasses though. Yeah, I know

Ashlee Cramer:

thoughts. I think that love. Love is huge. People have asked

Ashlee Cramer:

me a lot of in a lot of interviews. Do you hate cancer?

Ashlee Cramer:

Are you angry at cancer? Because it is definitely took away my

Ashlee Cramer:

husband took away a lot from a lot of things it looks like but

Ashlee Cramer:

I don't hate cancer because I think wasting your time on hate

Ashlee Cramer:

and anger doesn't help anything at all. I think love has been

Ashlee Cramer:

what has healed us the most. We always say that there's a four

Ashlee Cramer:

letter word for cancer. And it's not the F word. It's not

Ashlee Cramer:

anything else. Our four letter word has been love. And I really

Ashlee Cramer:

believe that with all my heart, we've had so much love. And I

Ashlee Cramer:

think giving love. I think it's, you know, reason, Michael, still

Ashlee Cramer:

here we have, I feel like we have my husband's love with us

Ashlee Cramer:

as well. And I think exactly what you said, I want to

Ashlee Cramer:

reinforce what you said, especially for caregivers. Of

Ashlee Cramer:

course, we cannot know everything that you went through

Ashlee Cramer:

that he went through my son, but he's still going through, I can

Ashlee Cramer:

understand everything, just like but I think for caregivers, they

Ashlee Cramer:

have their own pain, and they need their own support as well.

Ashlee Cramer:

So I encourage caregivers, you know, that I know I've said this

Ashlee Cramer:

before, Michael's heard me say it when the oxygen mask comes

Ashlee Cramer:

down, they always say put it on yourself, and then your child,

Ashlee Cramer:

no caregiver is going to do that every single caregiver is going

Ashlee Cramer:

to put it on their child or the first. Okay, put it on them

Ashlee Cramer:

first. But don't forget to put it on yourself too. That's my

Ashlee Cramer:

advice. Beautiful.

Michael Cramer:

Well, my message is, so at 22 years old, I have

Michael Cramer:

osteoporosis, my bones are very hollow. I have avascular

Michael Cramer:

necrosis, basically, meaning I can't lift weights workout, or

Michael Cramer:

do really any physical activity. And because of my graft versus

Michael Cramer:

host disease, I'm basically allergic to the sun. So I can't

Michael Cramer:

really work out, I can't really surf, I can't do any of those

Michael Cramer:

things physically, I can't really travel, I can't go on

Michael Cramer:

vacation, there is no vacation. And for all the people out there

Michael Cramer:

who can work a job, who can go on vacation who can work out,

Michael Cramer:

and you can do things that you know, normal people can do. Just

Michael Cramer:

appreciate that. Because there's a lot of people out there who

Michael Cramer:

are similar to me and in my shoes and have been affected

Michael Cramer:

from that secondary effects of cancer and can't do those

Michael Cramer:

things. So my message is, if you can do those things, just be

Michael Cramer:

grateful because sometimes we wish we wish we were

Michael Cramer:

millionaires enough to work and we can do whatever we wanted.

Michael Cramer:

But in my point of view, the people are healthy and can do

Michael Cramer:

those little things that I wish I could do, or the millionaires

Michael Cramer:

and the richest people. So just take that into perspective.

Howard Brown:

I love it. And I'm going to add another four letter

Howard Brown:

word to your love. And it's I talked about resiliency, and you

Howard Brown:

both have it. I'm going to talk about the four letter word

Howard Brown:

called Hope. Yes. So without hope you don't have you do not

Howard Brown:

have the fuel. Okay, love. Love is that's just automatic. But

Howard Brown:

it's easy to lose hope it's easy to live in that darkness. And,

Howard Brown:

you know, we discussed the title of the show, there is no why I

Howard Brown:

want to just thank you for sharing. This has been

Howard Brown:

absolutely incredible. You know, this, just touch off a lot of

Howard Brown:

feelings for you. And I'm just going to tell you, Michael,

Howard Brown:

you're going to power through it, you are going to be this

Howard Brown:

amazing international award winning keynote speaker because

Howard Brown:

you have so much to say, and I'm going to help you. We're going

Howard Brown:

to get you there. And I just want to tell you I really am

Howard Brown:

sending a lot of love and appreciation for you to come and

Howard Brown:

tell us your voice with me today. For those this is the

Howard Brown:

shining brightly show you can get me at shining brightly.com

Howard Brown:

My book, my podcast speaking and my advocacy are all there. And

Howard Brown:

if we choose to shine brightly, just a little bit each day for

Howard Brown:

ourselves, for others and for our communities, the world will

Howard Brown:

be a better place and thank you

Ashlee Cramer:

thank you so much new shines so brightly how were